Theo Todman's Web Page - Notes Pages

Personal Identity

Vague Identity

(Text as at 06/07/2023 00:43:12)

Plug Note¹

• Thesis Text:
  1. I have nothing to say on this topic other than what I’ve said under Indeterminate Identity².

• ---

  Further Remarks:
  1. The orthodox approach to the Logic of Identity³ is to treat it as a necessary equivalence relation. I follow this approach.
  2. However, in response to various TEs⁴, deviant forms₅ of Identity have been devised, and some are still popular.
  3. However, the logic of identity⁶ is so secure that it is sensible to look for other explanations of any TE that appears to bring it into doubt.
  4. Two seemingly related suggestions are Vague Identity (VI, this Note) and Indeterminate Identity⁷ (II).
  5. I’m not sure of the distinction between VI and II, having studied neither in any detail, but:-
     1. I’d have thought that VI is a metaphysical claim alongside the suggestion – allegedly refuted by Gareth Evans – that there can be vague objects.
     2. In contrast to this, II sounds like an epistemological claim – that there are identity claims the truth-values of which we cannot know.
     3. The above distinction is somewhat moot if the puzzle of Vagueness⁸ is seen as at root epistemological, as by Timothy Williamson.
     4. To make matters worse, there are at least two other terms used:-
        → “Indefinite Identity”, and
        → “Imperfect Identity”
        Both these terms sound metaphysical, so I’ve assumed (for now) that they are the same as “Vague Identity”.
        
  6. However, a quick look through the abstract of the papers on the reading lists suggests that the two notions are related – in that papers titled as related to one actually seem to relate to the other. "Parsons (Terence) - Indeterminate Identity" below looks like a good study of the whole topic but uses II to mean indeterminacy in the world, which is a metaphysical claim.
  7. I intend to cover these topics in Chapter 4⁹ along with the other deviant approaches to Identity.

References

• Relevant Works cited above:
  1. "Parsons (Terence) - Indeterminate Identity", 2000, Book, Read = 6%
• For a Page of Links¹⁰ to this Note, Click here.
• Works on this topic that I’ve actually read¹¹, include the following:-
  • General:
    1. "Evans (Gareth) - Can There Be Vague Objects?", 1978, Internal PDF Link
    2. "Garrett (Brian) - Identity and Vagueness", 1998
    3. "Hossack (Keith) - Vagueness and Personal Identity", 2006
    4. "Hudson (Hud) - The Metaphysics of Hyperspace: Introduction", 2008
    5. "Olson (Eric) - Imperfect Identity", 2006, Annotations, Internal PDF Link, Footnote₁₂
    6. "Sider (Ted) - In Favour of Four-Dimensionalism, Part 2: The Best Unified Theory of the Paradoxes of Coincidence", 2003, Annotations
• A further reading list might start with:-
  • General:
    1. "Broome (John) - Indefiniteness in Identity", 1984, Internal PDF Link, Read = 50%
    2. "Burgess (J.A.) - Vague Identity: Evans Misrepresented", 1989, No Abstract, Internal PDF Link
    3. "Burgess (J.A.) - Vague Objects and Indefinite Identity", 1955, Internal PDF Link
    4. "Copeland (B. Jack) - Vague Identity and Fuzzy Logic", 1997, Internal PDF Link
    5. "Cowles (David) - On Van Inwagen's Defense of Vague Identity", 1994, Internal PDF Link
    6. "Edgington (Dorothy) - Williamson on Vagueness, Identity and Leibniz's Law", 2002, No Abstract
    7. "Garrett (Brian) - Vague Identity and Vague Objects", 1991, Internal PDF Link
    8. "Garrett (Brian) - Vagueness and Identity", 1988, Internal PDF Link
    9. "Hawley (Katherine) - Indeterminism and Indeterminacy", 1998, Internal PDF Link, Read = 33%
    10. "Heck (Richard) - That There Might Be Vague Objects (So Far as Concerns Logic)", 1998, Internal PDF Link
    11. "Heller (Mark) - Vagueness and the Standard Ontology", 1996, Internal PDF Link
    12. "Hershenov (David) - Vague Existence Implies Vague Identity", 2014, External Link, Internal PDF Link, Read = 4%
    13. "Johnsen (Bruce) - Is Vague Identity Coherent?", 1989, No Abstract
    14. "Keefe (Rosanna) - Contingent Identity and Vague Identity", 1995, Internal PDF Link
    15. "Lowe (E.J.) - Reply to Noonan on Vague Identity", 1997, Internal PDF Link
    16. "Lowe (E.J.) - Vague Identity and Quantum Indeterminacy", 1994, External Link, Internal PDF Link, Read = 17%
    17. "Lowe (E.J.) - Vague Identity and Quantum Indeterminacy: Further Reflections", 1999, Internal PDF Link
    18. "Markosian (Ned) - Sorensen's Argument against Vague Objects", 2000, Internal PDF Link, Read = 11%
    19. "Noonan (Harold) - Vague Identity Yet Again", 1990, Internal PDF Link
    20. "Noonan (Harold) - Vague Objects", 1982, No Abstract, Internal PDF Link
    21. "Over (D.E.) - Vague Objects and Identity", 1989, No Abstract
    22. "Parsons (Terence) - Indeterminate Identity", 2000, Book, Read = 6%
    23. "Prinz (Jesse) - Vagueness, Language and Ontology", 1998, No Abstract, External Link, Internal PDF Link
    24. "Rasmussen (Stig Alstrup) - Vague Identity", 1986, Internal PDF Link
    25. "Sainsbury (Mark) - Tolerating Vagueness", 1988, No Abstract, Internal PDF Link
    26. "Sider (Ted) - Against Vague Existence", 2003, External Link, Internal PDF Link, Read = 17%
    27. "Smith (Nicholas J.J.) - A Plea For Things That Aren't Quite All There, or, Is There a Problem about Vague Composition and Vague Existence?", 2005, External Link, Internal PDF Link
    28. "Stalnaker (Robert) - Vague Identity", 2003, Read = 11%
    29. "Thomason (Richmond H.) - Identity and Vagueness", 1982, Internal PDF Link
    30. "Torrago (Loretta) - Vagueness and Identity", 1999, External Link, Internal PDF Link
    31. "Van Inwagen (Peter) - How To Reason About Vague Objects", 1986, No Abstract, Internal PDF Link
    32. "Van Inwagen (Peter) - The Vagueness of Identity", 1990, No Abstract
    33. "Williams (J. Robbie G.) - Multiple Actualities and Ontically Vague Identity", 2008, Internal PDF Link, Read = 11%
    34. "Williamson (Timothy) - Vagueness, Identity and Leibniz's Law", 2002, Read = 15%

  ---

• For a list of Works that have been considered, but have missed the cut for inclusion in this Section of my Thesis, see the following:-
  1. Read: No items to list.
  2. Further Reading: No items to list.
• This is mostly a place-holder¹³.

---

In-Page Footnotes:

Footnote 5:

• I’m not sure if this is the correct terminology.

Footnote 12:

• It looks like Olson uses “imperfect” as an amalgamated metaphysical / epistemological claim.

---

Table of the Previous 10 Versions of this Note:

Date	Length	Title
20/09/2022 11:24:00	4602	Vague Identity
01/05/2022 18:20:10	4275	Vague Identity
02/07/2021 20:32:38	3925	Vague Identity
19/02/2021 00:23:02	3482	Vague Identity
30/09/2020 21:33:07	2825	Vague Identity
30/11/2019 22:58:05	2471	Vague Identity
17/01/2018 13:43:41	3822	Vague Identity
06/07/2015 23:34:05	2542	Vague Identity
26/11/2007 23:25:26	84	Vague Identity
12/08/2007 10:17:46	80	Vague Identity

---

Note last updated	Reading List for this Topic	Parent Topic
06/07/2023 00:43:12	Vague Identity	Logic of Identity

---

Summary of Notes Referenced by This Note

Awaiting Attention (Personal Identity)	Indeterminate Identity	Logic of Identity	Note Links Explanation	Plug Note Apologia
Thesis - Chapter 04 (Basic Metaphysical Issues)	Thought Experiments	Vagueness	Works Read - Explanation

To access information, click on one of the links in the table above.

---

Summary of Notes Citing This Note

Existence	Indeterminate Identity, 2	Logic of Identity	Mereology	Methuselah
PID Note, Book & Paper Usage, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9	Thesis - Chapter 01 (Introduction)	Thesis - Chapter 04 (Basic Metaphysical Issues), 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9	Thesis - Chapter 07 (The Constitution View and Arguments for It)	Thesis - Current Stance
Thesis - Personal Identity, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8	Vagueness	Website Generator Documentation - Functors, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6

To access information, click on one of the links in the table above.

---

Authors, Books & Papers Citing this Note

Author	Title	Medium	Extra Links	Read?
Akiba (Ken)	Identity Is Simple	Paper	2
Austin (David F.), Ed.	Philosophical Analysis: A Defense by Example – For Edmund Gettier	Book
Cowles (David)	On Van Inwagen's Defense of Vague Identity	Paper
French (Steven) & Krause (Décio)	Quantum Objects are Vague Objects	Paper
Garrett (Brian)	Identity and Vagueness	Paper		Yes
Garrett (Brian)	Vagueness and Identity	Paper	2, 3
Hawley (Katherine)	Vagueness and Existence	Paper
Hershenov (David)	Vague Existence Implies Vague Identity	Paper	2, 3, 4, 5, 6
Hossack (Keith)	Five Lectures on the Logic and Metaphysics of Identity	Paper		Yes
Hudson (Hud)	The Metaphysics of Hyperspace: Introduction	Paper		Yes
Lowe (E.J.)	Identity Over Time and Change Of Composition	Paper
Lowe (E.J.)	Reply to Noonan on Vague Identity	Paper
Lowe (E.J.)	Vague Identity and Quantum Indeterminacy	Paper
Noonan (Harold)	Identity	Paper	2
Noonan (Harold)	Identity: Introduction	Paper	2
Noonan (Harold)	Indeterminate Identity, Contingent Identity and Abelardian Predicates	Paper
Noonan (Harold)	Vague Identity Yet Again	Paper
Oderberg (David)	Some Problems of Identity Over Time Considered	Paper
Sider (Ted)	In Favour of Four-Dimensionalism, Part 2: The Best Unified Theory of the Paradoxes of Coincidence	Paper		Yes
Todman (Theo)	Thesis - Chapter 01 (Introduction)	Paper		Yes
Todman (Theo)	Thesis - Chapter 04 (Basic Metaphysical Issues)	Paper	2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9	Yes
Todman (Theo)	Thesis - Chapter 07 (The Constitution View and Arguments for It)	Paper		Yes
Todman (Theo)	Thesis - Current Position	Paper		Yes
Todman (Theo)	Thesis - Existence	Paper		Yes
Todman (Theo)	Thesis - Indeterminate Identity	Paper	2	Yes
Todman (Theo)	Thesis - Logic of Identity	Paper		Yes
Todman (Theo)	Thesis - Mereology	Paper		Yes
Todman (Theo)	Thesis - Methuselah	Paper		Yes
Todman (Theo)	Thesis - Personal Identity	Paper	2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
Todman (Theo)	Thesis - Vagueness	Paper		Yes
Van Inwagen (Peter)	Précis of Material Beings	Paper		Yes
Williams (J. Robbie G.)	Multiple Actualities and Ontically Vague Identity	Paper	2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9
Williamson (Timothy)	Vagueness, Identity and Leibniz's Law	Paper	2, 3, 4, 5, 6

---

References & Reading List

Author	Title	Medium	Source	Read?
Akiba (Ken)	Identity Is Simple	Paper - By Subtopic	American Philosophical Quarterly, Vol. 37, No. 4 (Oct., 2000), pp. 389-404	20%
Balashov (Yuri)	On Vagueness, 4D and Diachronic Universalism	Paper - By Subtopic	Australasian Journal of Philosophy 83 (2005)	No
Bottani (Andrea C.), Carrara (Massimiliano) & Giaretta (Pierdaniele), Eds.	Individuals, Essence And Identity: Themes of Analytic Metaphysics	Book - By Subtopic (via Paper By Subtopic)	Bottani (Andrea C.), Carrara (Massimiliano) & Giaretta (Pierdaniele), Eds. - Individuals, Essence And Identity: Themes of Analytic Metaphysics	1%
Broome (John)	Indefiniteness in Identity	Paper - Cited	Analysis, Vol. 44, No. 1 (Jan., 1984), pp. 6-12	33%
Burgess (J.A.)	Vague Identity: Evans Misrepresented	Paper - By Subtopic	Analysis 49, 1989, 112-119	No
Burgess (J.A.)	Vague Objects and Indefinite Identity	Paper - By Subtopic	Philosophical Studies, Vol. 59, No. 3 (Jul., 1955), pp. 263-287	No
Cartwright (Helen Morris)	On Two Arguments for the Indeterminacy of Personal Identity	Paper - By Subtopic	Synthese 95, 1993, 241-273	4%
Chandler (Hugh S.)	Indeterminate People	Paper - By Subtopic	Analysis 45, 1985, 141-145	No
Copeland (B. Jack)	Vague Identity and Fuzzy Logic	Paper - By Subtopic	Journal of Philosophy 94.10, Oct. 1997, pp. 514-534	No
Edgington (Dorothy)	Williamson on Vagueness, Identity and Leibniz's Law	Paper - By Subtopic	Bottani - Individuals, Essence and Identity, 2002	No
Eklund (Matti)	Personal Identity, Concerns, And Indeterminacy	Paper - By Subtopic	Monist, Oct2004, Vol. 87 Issue 4, p489-511, 23p;	No
Evans (Gareth)	Can There Be Vague Objects?	Paper - Cited	Analysis, Vol. 38, No. 4 (Oct., 1978), p. 208	Yes
Gallois (Andre)	Indefinite Identities	Paper - By Subtopic	Gallois - Occasions of Identity, 1998, Chapter 9	No
Gallois (Andre)	Occasions of Identity : a Study in the Metaphysics of Persistence, Change, and Sameness	Book - By Subtopic (via Paper By Subtopic)	Gallois (Andre) - Occasions of Identity : a Study in the Metaphysics of Persistence, Change, and Sameness	No
Garrett (Brian)	Identity and Vagueness	Paper - By Subtopic	Garrett - Personal Identity and Self-consciousness, 1998, Chapter 5	Yes
Garrett (Brian)	Personal Identity and Self-consciousness	Book - By Subtopic (via Paper By Subtopic)	Garrett (Brian) - Personal Identity and Self-consciousness	Yes
Garrett (Brian)	Vagueness and Identity	Paper - Referencing	Analysis, Vol. 48, No. 3 (Jun., 1988), pp. 130-134	No
Hawley (Katherine)	How Things Persist	Book - By Subtopic (via Paper By Subtopic)	Hawley (Katherine) - How Things Persist	5%
Hawley (Katherine)	Indeterminism and Indeterminacy	Paper - By Subtopic	Analysis Vol. 58.2 (1998) pp. 101-106	33%
Hawley (Katherine)	Vagueness	Paper - By Subtopic	Hawley - How Things Persist, Chapter 4	No
Hawley (Katherine)	Vagueness and Existence	Paper - By Subtopic	Proceedings of the Aristotelian Society CII (2001-2), pp. 125-140	8%
Heck (Richard)	That There Might Be Vague Objects (So Far as Concerns Logic)	Paper - By Subtopic	The Monist, Vol. 81, No. 2, Vagueness (April 1998), pp. 274-296	No
Heller (Mark)	Against Metaphysical Vagueness	Paper - By Subtopic	Noûs, Vol. 30, Supplement: Philosophical Perspectives, 10, Metaphysics, 1996, pp. 177-185	No
Heller (Mark)	Vagueness and the Standard Ontology	Paper - By Subtopic	Nous, Vol. 22, No. 1, 1988 A.P.A. Central Division Meetings, Mar., 1988, pp. 109-131	No
Hershenov (David)	The Thesis of Vague Objects and Unger's Problem of the Many	Paper - By Subtopic	Philosophical Papers, 30:1, March 2001, 47-57	11%
Hershenov (David)	Vague Existence Implies Vague Identity	Paper - By Subtopic	Vague Objects and Vague Identity ed. Ken Akiba and Ali Abasnezhad, Springer. 2014	4%
Hossack (Keith)	Vagueness and Personal Identity	Paper - By Subtopic	MacBride - Identity and Modality, 2006, Chapter 10	Yes
Hull (Gerald)	Bipolar Disorder: Horgan on Vagueness and Incoherence	Paper - By Subtopic	Synthese 143 (3):351-369 (2005)	No
Jackman (Henry)	Temporal Externalism and Epistemic Theories of Vagueness	Paper - By Subtopic	Philosophical Studies 117: 79–94, 2004.	No
Johnsen (Bruce)	Is Vague Identity Coherent?	Paper - By Subtopic	Analysis 49, 1989, 103-112	No
Keefe (Rosanna)	Contingent Identity and Vague Identity	Paper - By Subtopic	Analysis 55.3, 1995, 183-190	No
Keefe (Rosanna) & Smith (Peter)	Vagueness: A Reader	Book - By Subtopic (via Paper By Subtopic)	Keefe (Rosanna) & Smith (Peter) - Vagueness: A Reader	13%
Keefe (Rosanna) & Smith (Peter)	Vagueness: A Reader	Book - Cited (via Paper Cited)	Bibliographical details to be supplied	13%
Koslicki (Kathrin)	The Crooked Path From Vagueness To Four-Dimensionalism	Paper - By Subtopic	Philosophical Studies, Vol. 114, No. 1/2, Selected Papers from the 2002 Bellingham Summer Philosophy Conference at Western Washington University (May, 2003), pp. 107-134	No
Lewis (David)	Many, But Almost One	Paper - By Subtopic	Lewis - Papers in Metaphysics and Epistemology	6%
Lewis (David)	Papers in Metaphysics and Epistemology	Book - By Subtopic (via Paper By Subtopic)	Lewis (David) - Papers in Metaphysics and Epistemology	5%
Lewis (David)	Vague Identity: Evans Misunderstood	Paper - By Subtopic	Analysis, Vol. 48, No. 3 (Jun., 1988), pp. 128-130	No
Lowe (E.J.)	The Paradox of the 1,001 Cats	Paper - By Subtopic	Analysis, Vol. 42, No. 1 (Jan., 1982), pp. 27-30	No
Lowe (E.J.)	The Problems of the Many and the Vagueness of Constitution	Paper - By Subtopic	Analysis 55.3, July 1995, pp. 179-182	No
Lowe (E.J.)	Vague Identity and Quantum Indeterminacy	Paper - By Subtopic	Analysis, Vol. 54, No. 2 (Apr., 1994), pp. 110-114	17%
Lowe (E.J.)	Vague Identity and Quantum Indeterminacy: Further Reflections	Paper - By Subtopic	Analysis, Vol. 59, No. 4 (Oct., 1999), pp. 328-330	No
MacBride (Fraser), Ed.	Identity and Modality	Book - By Subtopic (via Paper By Subtopic)	MacBride (Fraser), Ed. - Identity and Modality	5%
Markosian (Ned)	Sorensen's Argument against Vague Objects	Paper - By Subtopic	Philosophical Studies, Vol. 97, No. 1 (Jan., 2000), pp. 1-9	11%
Miller (Kristie)	Vagueness, Persistence and Indeterminate Identity	Paper - By Subtopic	Erkenntnis (1975-), Vol. 64, No. 2 (Mar., 2006), pp. 223-230	11%
Monaghan (P.X.)	Vague Objects and Existence	Paper - By Subtopic	Metaphysica 5.1 (2004), pp. 59-66	No
Noonan (Harold)	Indeterminate Identity, Contingent Identity and Abelardian Predicates	Paper - By Subtopic	Philosophical Quarterly 41.163, Apr. 1991, pp. 183-193	No
Noonan (Harold)	Vague Identity Yet Again	Paper - By Subtopic	Analysis, Vol. 50, No. 3 (Jun., 1990), pp. 157-162	No
Noonan (Harold)	Vague Objects	Paper - By Subtopic	Analysis, Vol. 42, No. 1 (Jan., 1982), pp. 3-6	No
Over (D.E.)	Vague Objects and Identity	Paper - By Subtopic	Analysis 49, 1989, 97-99	No
Parsons (Terence)	Indeterminate Identity	Book - Cited	Parsons (Terence) - Indeterminate Identity	6%
Parsons (Terence) & Woodruff (Peter)	Worldly Indeterminacy of Identity	Paper - By Subtopic	Proceedings of the Aristotelian Society, Vol. 95 (1995), pp. 171-191	No
Prinz (Jesse)	Vagueness, Language and Ontology	Paper - By Subtopic	The University of Louisiana at Lafayette Website	No
Sainsbury (Mark)	Tolerating Vagueness	Paper - By Subtopic	Proceedings of the Aristotelian Society, New Series, Vol. 89 (1988 - 1989), pp. 33-48	No
Sainsbury (Mark)	What Is a Vague Object?	Paper - By Subtopic	Analysis 49, 1989, 99-103	No
Sider (Ted)	Against Vague Existence	Paper - By Subtopic	Philosophical Studies, May 2003; 114(1-2): 135-146	17%
Smith (Nicholas J.J.)	A Plea For Things That Aren't Quite All There, or, Is There a Problem about Vague Composition and Vague Existence?	Paper - By Subtopic	Journal of Philosophy 102 (8):381-421 (2005)	No
Stalnaker (Robert)	Vague Identity	Paper - By Subtopic	Stalnaker - Ways a World Might Be, Chapter 7	11%
Stalnaker (Robert)	Ways a World Might Be: Metaphysical and Anti-Metaphysical Essays	Book - By Subtopic (via Paper By Subtopic)	Stalnaker (Robert) - Ways a World Might Be: Metaphysical and Anti-Metaphysical Essays	1%
Todman (Theo)	Thesis - Vague Identity	Paper - By Subtopic		Yes
Tye (Michael)	Vague Objects	Paper - By Subtopic	Mind, Vol. 99, No. 396, Oct., 1990, pp. 535-557	No
Van Inwagen (Peter)	How To Reason About Vague Objects	Paper - By Subtopic	Noûs, Vol. 20, No. 1, 1986 A. P. A. Central Division Meetings (Mar., 1986), pp. 72-73	No
Van Inwagen (Peter)	Material Beings	Book - By Subtopic (via Paper By Subtopic)	Van Inwagen (Peter) - Material Beings	27%
Van Inwagen (Peter)	The Problem of the Many and the Vagueness of Composition	Paper - By Subtopic	Van Inwagen - Material Beings; 1990; Ch. 17	No
Van Inwagen (Peter)	The Vagueness of Existence	Paper - By Subtopic	Van Inwagen - Material Beings; 1990; Ch. 19	No
Van Inwagen (Peter)	The Vagueness of Identity	Paper - By Subtopic	Van Inwagen - Material Beings; 1990; Ch. 18	No
Varzi (Achille)	Vagueness, Indiscernibility, and Pragmatics: Comments on Burns	Paper - By Subtopic	Southern Journal of Philosophy 33 Supplement (1995), 49-62	No
Williams (J. Robbie G.)	Multiple Actualities and Ontically Vague Identity	Paper - By Subtopic	The Philosophical Quarterly, Vol. 58, No. 230, Special Issue: Existence and Identity (Jan., 2008), pp. 134-154	11%
Williamson (Timothy)	Vagueness	Book - By Subtopic (via Paper By Subtopic)	Williamson (Timothy) - Vagueness	4%
Williamson (Timothy)	Vagueness in the World	Paper - By Subtopic	Williamson (Timothy) - Vagueness, Chapter 9	No
Williamson (Timothy)	Vagueness, Identity and Leibniz's Law	Paper - By Subtopic	Bottani - Individuals, Essence and Identity, 2002	15%
Woodruff (Peter) & Parsons (Terence)	Indeterminancy of Identity of Objects and Sets	Paper - By Subtopic	Philosophical Perspectives, Vol. 11, Mind, Causation, and World (1997), pp. 321-348	4%
Zimmerman (Dean) & Gendler (Tamar Szabo), Eds.	Monist Special Issue: Personal Identity	Book - By Subtopic (via Paper By Subtopic)	Zimmerman (Dean) & Gendler (Tamar Szabo), Eds. - Monist Special Issue: Personal Identity	2%

---

Text Colour Conventions

1. Blue: Text by me; © Theo Todman, 2025

---

© Theo Todman, June 2007 - May 2025.	Please address any comments on this page to theo@theotodman.com.	File output: 03/05/2025 12:27:25 Website Maintenance Dashboard
Return to Top of this Page	Return to Theo Todman's Philosophy Page	Return to Theo Todman's Home Page

---